Dr. Edith Irby Jones
Interview with: Dr. Edith Irby Jones
Interviewed by: Leigh Culter, Lauren Kerr, and Yimei Zhang
Date: March 10, 2005
Transcribed by: Leigh Culter
LC: This is Side A of an interview with Dr. Edith Irby Jones, part of a project about the history of African-American physicians in Houston. The interview is being conducted by Leigh Cutler, Lauran Kerr and Yimei Zhang. The date is Thursday, March 10, 2005. The interview is taking place in Dr. Jones’ office at 2601 Prospect Street, in Houston, Texas. Ok, Dr. Jones, if you will just state for us your name, your full name again, your date of birth, and where you went to school, and the year that you graduated.
EJ: My full name is Edith Irby, I-R-B-Y, Jones. I was born December 23, 1927. I went to medical school in 1948 and graduated in 1952.
LC: And where was that? In Arkansas?
EJ: That was at the University of Arkansas School of Medicine in Little Rock, Arkansas.
LC: And then, is it right that you did your residency at Baylor College of Medicine?
EJ: I did my residency at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas.
LC: I first wanted to know – I read in your biography that you started your residency at Baylor and then you went to D.C. and finished it. Is that correct?
EJ: Almost correct. (Laughs). I did three months of residency at Freedman’s Hospital at Howard University as a part of my residency. I did it for two reasons. One was that the coordinators of the residency of here were considered about my rotating through, at that time, Jefferson Davis Hospital, because we still had laws of segregation – laws where it said fountains for drinking water were for colored, for white. Restrooms were marked for white, for colored. And they had some concerns from their compliance with me with those conditions, and preferred that they would not rotate me through there. In the meantime, I had gotten to know a Dr. John B. Johnson, who was at that time very renowned in the field of cardiovascular medicine. In fact, I believe he’s the first one that did intravenous study, well, really inter-arterial study, of the heart. With my having known him from going to meetings, I asked him if it was possible for me to have a rotation at Freedman’s with Howard. And, of course, he said yes, and I spent three months there at Howard. But it was not the end of my rotation; it was somewhere during the last year of my rotation. I came back to Houston and finished the residency in Houston.
LC: I see, okay.
EJ: But it’s almost correct!
LC: That clears it up, though. Thank you. Alright, well what was it about Houston in the early 60s, after you finished your residency, that made you want to stay and start your practice here?
EJ: Of course I had dual reasons. Family life – my husband was with the university, Texas Southern University, and by that time, three years, I had gotten to know the city, and the people in the city, and I liked what I saw. I had also gotten to know the medical world, being a resident and attending meetings, and I liked the colleagues with whom I would be working. And I had gotten to know somewhat what the flavor of the requirements (were) for giving service in Houston. I had seen service both for those who could afford to pay, and I had seen service for those who were indigent. And I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to deliver service primarily to those who had least of service. That appealed to me, and so I stayed in Houston.
LC: That’s great. And have you been in this location since the beginning?
EJ: I have been in this location since 1962. In fact, when I came to this location, we had no public transportation. Now we have the buses. It was primarily residents, moving out residents, it was the people who had big houses and lots of money and they were moving to River Oaks and various other places. This was almost, at that time, sort of a deserted area, as far as people wanting to move into it.
LC: Well, have things like transportation and the Metro – I noticed that there are Metro stops around here – has that helped people get to you?
EJ: Well, people seem to have gotten to me. I have never been without a full day’s work since the first day I opened. (Laughter) Many people, of course, can walk. We’re in an area where people…and somehow or other they found transportation. There’s never a day in which I have had any time when there was not a full day. And I work long past the hour in which I said was closing hour, and we say 6 o’clock, and we’re fortunate if we get out by 9 or 10 o’clock at night.
LC: We were wondering what your involvement with Riverside Hospital has been over the years.
EJ: Riverside Hospital was one of the hospitals that I became a staff member when I applied for membership. At that time, as it is now, it was located in a very impoverished area, serving people who could pay, people who could not pay. I became involved, and have stayed involved, hoping because they had in their goals, the same as I have, to deliver health care to whoever may come to my door, or whoever would come to their door. And I have continued to stay involved in whatever was needed from a physician – I have always been there with Riverside to give it.
LC: And, what is your position over there?
EJ: I’m Chief of the Medical Staff now.
LC: And how long have you held that position?
EJ: This is the third year, I believe.
LK: Since St. Elizabeth’s has become a drug rehabilitation center, are you involved with that or are you involved with the hospital…?
EJ: Well, St. Elizabeth’s now, of course it isn’t named St. Elizabeth’s, but the building where St. Elizabeth’s is, is a part of the Riverside drug…
LK: Okay, so Riverside is primarily a drug…this is one thing I’m confused about.
EJ: No, Riverside is a general hospital. And the drug program is just one of the programs. What has happened is Riverside has tried to meet those needs that were not being met otherwise. And drug addiction, particularly for the poor, Blacks and others, has become a significant problem, and there is no place for them to have the adequate therapy, to have the follow-up care. Riverside put that in as another\program It’s a major program with Riverside, but Riverside itself is a general hospital. We see all kinds of illnesses, surgeries, what have you, there at Riverside.
LK: Thank you.
LC: Lauran, did you want to ask her the question you had about women?
LK: Yes, I just wanted to get your input on the experience of African-American women in the medical field in Houston. Since you began practicing in the 60s, is that correct?
EJ: In ’62. When I started practicing, there were only two Black women physicians…
LK: In Houston?
EJ: In Houston. Dr. Patten and Dr. Etna…I’d have to get you her name. But it was only the two. Since that time, of course, I would think we have at least 300 plus. For women, until recently – recently being 10, 15 years ago, maybe 20 – were not welcomed into medical education. And the reason they gave for it was they felt that women would not take advantage of their education, would either not practice, would practice so little that it was not deserving of giving them a place in the medical class. And so women were not widely accepted into medical school. When I went, I was in a class of 91. I was the one. (Laughter) And there were only two other women. And that was because – it wasn’t because women didn’t want to go – of course, women did not apply at that time at the same rate that they apply now, knowing that they can go, but I’m sure that they must have had at least fifty or more applications from women. At the same time, they had a large number for men, but they expected men to pursue their education, roles of practicing, more than women. They thought women would go home and take care of children, practice in such a limited manner that it would not be cost or either effort efficient to have them enrolled and go through medical school. That is not true of course! Because even in my class, the other two women – one was an anesthesiologist and the other went into psychiatry. Dr. Arthur, who is the anesthesiologist, came to Houston after she had finished her residency, had practiced for a while. For other reasons, we felt that we would be well to spend the time together after she had reared her children, and my children had been reared. And we were friends. So, she came to Houston and practiced here for approximately fifteen years.
LC: What was her name?
EJ: Mary Arthur, A-R-T-H-U-R. Since she has retired – she has now been retired more than five years, not sure how long – she has gone to Hot Springs in Arkansas, and is now living on the lake in Arkansas, not practicing, but involved in many of the activities of good will, of doing things there. One of the reasons she retired is because she did become ill and needed to retire because the strain of the practice was too much for her to cope with. And, of course, Betty is in Chattanooga. Betty Thompson – I’ve going to need to give you her married name later – she has practiced psychiatry, and is still doing part time psychiatry. She has not retired.
LC: I guess, what would you say – to talk a little bit about yourself – what would you say is your best contribution to the Houston community? If you had to name one…
LK: Your favorite achievement...
LC: I know that’s a hard question! (Laughter)
LK: Because you’ve done so much!
EJ: I would say to always be here. I think that maybe my contribution to Houston has been stability, to have people know that I’m here for them – whether it’s a medical problem, another problem, educational problem, family problems – that even though I could not solve or could not satisfy their needs, that I could point them to whoever could and would work with them to see that the need was met. It’s maybe my persistence, to see that the needs of the poor have been met, and met with dignity, that they did not have to go to a physician’s office with some of the limitations that poor people had before – particularly Blacks, where they were seen in a different room, where they had to come through a different door, when they were seen that they did not get the same kinds of adequate medical care that others were being given, and that’s the paid against the unpaid, primarily. I think maybe my being here, in these situations, has meant to those who could not speak for themselves, or felt they could not speak for themselves, that they had a voice in me, and that I was their “Marvin Zindler” sort of person, and that I would see that their needs were met.
LC: Okay, that’s great. What advice would you give to high school students who are interested in becoming physicians, but who may not have the financial or the family support to pursue that goal?
EJ: I would say that’s not an obstacle. Of course when I went to medical school, there were not loans and scholarships, and all of the other things that are available now But, in anything, not just medical school, anything that you pursue, anything that you constantly are moving in a direction, meeting all of the requirements, there’s always some place financially, somebody who has adequate money, that will supply these needs. There are many, many ways now of getting an education. There are the loans; there are people who have more money than they need who want it to go for good and they’re willing to share this with those who are moving in a direction to make a better world. I would say financial, other support, family support, is not necessary. All the person needs to do is to know and to persistently pursue doing those things that are necessary to reach that goal. You certainly can’t be a physician by haphazardly doing your academic requirements. You have to be able to organize your living. You have to be able to know whether the things, I would say, prioritize the things you must do with the things you least have to do, to not forget what your goals are. Everything that you do should be related to what you’re trying to do. There’s no off-limits to anyone. You need to have nothing but the ambition, to follow that ambition, and there’s no reason that one will not succeed.
LC: Do you all have any other questions, specific things to ask?
LK: Could you expound a little bit on what you wrote on the questionnaire about how the medical field has changed in Houston for African Americans? Looking back when you first began practicing until now...
EJ: When I first came to Houston…Of course, when I first came, I was all involved with the residency. I was the only Black in the Baylor system of residency at that time. So, I had no competition from other Blacks, as far as being in that field, being in the medical education field. They had not been accepted. There was a Dr. John Madison, who was before my time, lived until several years ago, who had done a residency with Baylor. I was the first woman, but he was the first resident person with Baylor. And he had done an excellent job with Baylor, and of course that’s how I suppose I was able to get the position, is because he had done so well. But until that time, there had been no Blacks in any educational program medically in Houston. Of course that was 1962. That was before the schools were integrated. That was before the signs came down, Black, Colored – it was colored then, I believe – before the signs came down, Colored, White. Fortunately, most of my residency was at Veterans’ Hospital, where segregation was illegal in any government facility. So, in that facility, there was no segregation because these were World War II veterans who had come. And they had worked, fought, and been with each other. And of course the government law was, as I said, no governmental facility could have any segregation. So, my residency there was primarily as usual. It was as usual. Baylor faculty did the training program and there were no incidents, absolutely no incidents. And these were the people who encouraged me to stay in Houston, and of course the first day I opened I had a practice of more than thirty or forty people that were waiting because I had the referrals from the faculty members who had taught me – for patients. I have been, every day since then, overwhelmed with the number who seek my services.
LC: So, your residency at the Veterans’ Hospital, was that part of Baylor?
EJ: Right, that was, and still is. That is Baylor affiliated. And, at that time, Baylor and Jefferson Davis were the only hospitals to have the residency. Well, Methodist, Methodist was a part of it at that time. I did not have patients at Methodist. That was the three months that I spent in Washington at Freedman’s Hospital that I would have been over to Methodist. But, as soon as I finished my residency, I applied to Methodist for being on the staff. I was immediately accepted and was on the staff. It was one of my major staffs and still is. There I started my practiced – because I had been at VA Hospital, and because by that time, in three years, I had gotten to know most of the physicians. We didn’t have as many physicians – Black or White – at that time, as we have now. So, I knew most of the physicians in town. So, I had a very active practice with Methodist, with, well, Hermann did not accept me… well, interesting, since you want interesting stories… All: Yes! (Laughter)
EJ: …I applied to Hermann and Hermann accepted me, but on the basis that Dr. Croaches (sp) said, in our – oh, what do you call it – setting up a charter. In the charter, Hermann, the man who endowed the hospital, had written in there that Hermann Hospital was for white male physicians. So, this meant they didn’t have any females and they didn’t have any Blacks on their staff. So, he wanted me to challenge, take it to court and challenge the charter, saying that he put it in that day and time – and I don’t know when Hermann Hospital started – because that’s what the trend of the times were, and that they would support me in that. And of course at that time, I had a young family – 10, 8, maybe 1. I don’t think the third child was even born. I said, “No.” I didn’t want that. I wanted to start practicing. I didn’t want any publicity of any way. So, I did not do it. But, Hermann’s board took it to court.
LC: At that same time?
EJ: At that same time, right. And had it struck down. That was not the intent…
LK: In ’62 that was struck down?
EJ: Yes. That was not the intent of the charter at that time. So, of course Hermann accepted me on their medical staff. Since that time, I have served on Hermann Hospital’s charitable committee, in which we decided which way the monies for the charities that the Hermann Foundation has… and it has been one of my very supportive hospitals. That was at the same time that I applied to Riverside. Then, a little later, because I felt that there were not enough hospitals that could serve the poor, we built a hospital out in the, what we call now, Sunnyside area, the Southeast area, Mercy Hospital, and operated that hospital for at least ten years, until such time as Medicare came in and the other hospitals were accepting to Blacks and so forth, and there was not a significant need for the hospital. We closed it after about ten to twelve years.
LC: When was that Mercy Hospital open?
EJ: I don’t remember dates…
LC: In the 60s, though?
EJ: In the 60s, late 60s. And closed in the 70s.
LC: That’s interesting history there.
YZ: Dr. Jones, could you please tell us some other prominent African-American physicians in the Houston area?
EJ: Let’s see, prominent? (Laughs)
LK: Perhaps ones you began with…
EJ: Oh, they’re gone. Let’s see, I don’t know anyone who actually is still living that I began practicing with here in Houston. I can’t think of…In fact, when I come to think of it, I’m the only one left. Of course, many of the ones who came ten years later are still practicing or either still living. I’d almost have to see a roster and come up with some names. But, I have stayed active with the Houston Medical Forum.
LC: Did you become a part of that group as soon as…
EJ: Almost immediately. I also became a part of the Harris County, which is the overall, at that time predominantly white… I made applications to all of them because you could not be on the medical staffs unless you were a member of the local chapter for AMA in the state. This was one of the reasons why Blacks had not been accepted into the hospital staffs – because they could not get into the local societies, because no one knew them so they could not get recommendations. That is the interesting thing that my having gone to a White medical school…
EJ: There were no Blacks on hospital medical staffs in Arkansas. That is because they had the Catch 22 – that you have to have recommendations from either two or three staff people. Well, you can’t get a recommendation if you haven’t had any contact, and so the Black physicians there had no contact and they either had to form their own hospitals or they were not a part of a hospital staff. Because I had gone to the University of Arkansas, because I had stayed there and had done my internship, I knew practically all of the physicians in Arkansas. At that time, Arkansas wasn’t very full of physicians, and particularly I knew the students who had graduated before me at the medical school who were there, and the ones that were graduating with me. And these are the major physicians now, so I had no problem getting a recommendation or staff privileges. So, I was the first Black physician to be on any hospital staff in Arkansas. For that reason, that they could not get the credentials and the other reason is that they didn’t allow them to be members of the local medical societies of AMA, American Medical Association. The American Medical Association, of course, was the umbrella for all of the physicians at that time. You have to be a member of the local society, and be a local society of the state society, but if the local society won’t accept you, then you can’t be a member of the state or national organization. So, it was a Catch 22. By the time I came in, as I say, I had friends. We worked together, we had cried together, we had agonized, and we knew each other. There were 72 of us graduating and most of them stayed in Arkansas, so I had no problem getting recommendations.
LC: We don’t want to take up too much of your time, so is there anything else we haven’t mentioned that you wanted to…
EJ: Well, the problem isn’t over. We still have difficulty with women – not as much because there are more women, and there are more men accepting of women who are achievers – but, most of the time, for women to really get the recognition, they have to do twice as much, be even more diligent than her male counterpart. And this is in research, this is in education, but it’s slowly being broken down because there are more and more women. Women now complain, who are in the academic world, that they’re passed over frequently, who have done sometimes more than their counterpart males have done to get certain positions. We’re still in the minority as women, and as Blacks, and Black women, we are in more of the minority. But, to sit back and say that this is going to keep us from getting those things would be counter-productive. So, you have to be a bit more persistent and recognize you have to form a bit more liaisons and pursue them. I have worked in organized medicine. I have been very active in organized medicine to keep those things that are good, and to educate those who may not know things that are hindering because they’ve had no contact and no one to tell them, and this is as they’ve seen it all the time, they will tend to think that’s the way it is. Someone must come in and tell them – and organized medicine, for me, has been my voice. I have been president of the National Medical Association. I have worked with the American Medical Association in many of their committees. I’ve been involved in many of the county and the state, both in Arkansas and in Texas, and consequently we do have a voice. And we’re getting more voices now as more women come in. We’ve had presidents of the state medical association here in Texas who are women, and they didn’t get it very easy, you can’t bet your life. They were over-achievers. Until the playing field is level, we’re going to have to be over-achievers and do better than what we see our counterparts doing.
All: Alright…thank you!
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