Dr. Gladys Forde
Interview with: Dr. Gladys Forde, PhD
Interviewed by: Leigh Culter
Date: March 14, 2005
Transcribed by: Leigh Culter
LC: This is Leigh Cutler interviewing Dr. Gladys Forde for a project about the history of African-American physicians in Houston. The interview is taking place on Monday, March 14, 2005 at Dr. Forde’s home in Houston, Texas, 2531 Stevens Street. The interview will be about Dr. Forde’s father, who was one of the first African-American physicians in Houston. Dr. Forde, if you’ll just tell me your full name…
GF: My name is Gladys Inez Forde.
LC: And tell me a little bit about your background, where you were born, when you were born…
GF: I was born in Ashdown, Arkansas – a place you’ve never heard – on April 1st, 1920, so I’ve got a birthday coming up, and we lived there until I was three months old and we moved to Muskogee, Oklahoma and lived there until I was seven. And then we moved to Houston – been here ever since.
LC: Ok, so 1927?
GF: Yes, moved to Houston.
LC: What was your family like? Do you have brothers and sisters?
GF: I had one sister, older than I – just the two of us.
LC: And you moved here with your mother and father?
GF: Yes.
LC: You’re retired now…and were you a professor?
GF: Yes, at Fisk University in Nashville, Tennessee.
LC: What did you teach?
GF: Dramatics and Speech.
LC: How many years were you there?
GF: I was at Fisk 41 years. But, during those 41 years, I taught two years on leave at Colby College in Waterville, Maine, and I went to school 2 or 3 of those years. Prior to that, I taught at Bennett College in Greensboro, North Carolina.
LC: So, when did you move back to Houston?
GF: 1985.
LC: That’s great. Now, your father, let’s talk a little bit about him. Did you all move here for his profession?
GF: You know, you probably should talk to your parents a great deal more than you do. At 7 years old, we moved, and I moved! I think he moved here because, at that time, Houston Negro Hospital had been built and it gave him a place to practice. He was probably influenced by two men, Carter Wesley and Jack Atkins, both lawyers, who were practicing in Muskogee. Mr. Wesley was from Houston. And they came here and, in addition to practicing law, they were very active in civil rights and were active in the pursuit of voting rights for blacks in Texas. But anyhow, I think they influenced my father to come here, and I’m sure he came willingly because there was no hospital in Muskogee where he could practice, but there was a hospital here.
LC: Ok, and tell me your father’s name again…
GF: George Patrick Alfonso Forde.
LC: What kind of medicine did he practice?
GF: He was a general practitioner.
LC: So, he started off at Houston Negro Hospital, and then did he continue there throughout his career?
GF: Well, sometime after we were here, St. Elizabeth’s was built and he practiced at both those hospitals. As a matter of fact, he died at St. Elizabeth’s.
LC: And when did he die?
GF: 1967.
LC: Do you know when he was born?
GF: Yeah! September the 29th, 1882.
LC: Well, he lived a long life.
GF: He was 84 when he died. My mother was 89.
LC: So, did he ever leave Houston at any time for part of his practice?
GF: He left here to go, several times he went to Harvard in the summer, for refresher courses, or to take courses. But, no, he practiced the whole time here.
LC: Was he a member of Houston Medical Forum?
GF: Oh, yes.
LC: Did he ever hold any officer positions?
GF: I don’t know. (Laughs) That, I don’t know.
LC: I’ve heard that your father was one of the first
physicians in Houston?
GF: That’s not true…’cause everybody here is young, you see. As a matter of fact, let me take this off…I made a list of the physicians…I want to go get something for you.
LC: I’ll just stop the tape.
GF: Dr. Roett…and I know that Dr. Stone practiced primarily eye, ear, nose, and throat, but I don’t know that he was a board certified specialist. Dr. Lee did surgery, but he wasn’t board certified. A number of them did surgery, but the first board certified black physician in Houston was a Dr. Fletcher, T.A. Fletcher. He came here in the 40s. Dr. Roett’s daughter, Dr. Catherine, she was the first board certified pediatrician. Then, it’s either Louis Robey, the third one, or Carl Higgins the pediatrician. I don’t know who was next.
LC: So, would you say your father was maybe in the first ten?
GF: No, you’d have to say just “early.” See, all those people were here when we came.
LC: Oh, they were?
GF: Let’s see…Dr. Patten was here, Dr. Covington…All these people were here when we came. There may be one or two others that I don’t know. Now, Dr. Scott – (pointing at group of names on list), these were as far as I know dead – but, he did practice here because I knew his granddaughter. And this is Louis Robey’s, well, Don Robey, the current surgeon, that’s his great-grandfather. Dr. Bryant is a name I know, but I don’t know anything about him, or Ferrell or Terrell. But all of these are new.
LC: Well, those are great because that will help us…you know, we can always look up information. So, where did your father go to medical school?
GF: Meharry. My father was from Barbados.
LC: Oh, really?
GF: Uh huh, and he worked at the Panama Canal in the hospital on his way over here.
LC: And when did he move to the U.S.?
GF: He came to Meharry in 1909, and finished first in his class in 1913.
LC: And I just learned about Meharry Medical College, just a little bit. I guess it was one of the only medical schools that accepted blacks?
GF: Meharry and Howard, and there was a school, and I think, if I can put my hand on it, I’ve got a history of Meharry I’ll let you see. In Raleigh, North Carolina there was a school, but I don’t know anything about it.
LC: Now, you say that your father…well, you talked a little bit about his influence to come here to Houston. Do you know anything about what influenced him to become a physician?
GF: I think he came to this country…that was his childhood ambition, it must have been, because he worked at the hospital in the Canal to earn money to come to this country and go to…
LC: So, that was something that he did just as an interest in medicine? He didn’t have any schooling in it at the time when he was working at the Panama Canal?
GF: I don’t know, I don’t know…
LC: And his parents, what did they do? Were they doctors?
GF: No. His father was a tailor. I don’t know that his mother did anything. I never knew them.
LC: So, it’s just something that he probably…
GF: Wanted to do! He and Dr. Roett were from the same place.
LC: Oh, really? The elder Dr. Roett?
GF: Yes.
LC: Is the reason that he came to the U.S. because this was where the medical training was, and that wasn’t an option in Barbados?
GF: No, there was no medical school in Barbados. And he began practicing in Arkansas because that was the first board to meet after he was graduated. And he practiced in Ashdown, as I said, until – my mother was from Hot Springs and he met her there, and they married and lived in Ashdown.
LC: Now, going back to… since mostly my research is about Houston and black physicians in Houston, what would you say, what kind of contribution do you think that he made to Houston and the health of Houston at the time that he was working?
GF: Contribution…Well, I would say that he certainly had a large number of patients and he worked at the Negro Child Center I think, and did a lot in public health. He taught Prairie View nurses, I think. They would come to old Jeff Davis, and I think he taught them there. I think he was a very good physician, highly respected by his peers.
LC: And he and his peers, through Houston Medical Forum, was that kind of a way for the black physicians that were practicing here at the time to come together and make more of an influence in what they were doing?
GF: Well, certainly they were not accepted into the Houston Medical Society, so, yes, that was their way of doing what they could to foster the profession and to improve the healthcare in the community.
LC: And then, from what you know, thinking about what your father did and the people he was working around, what contributions do you think on the whole that black physicians have made in the twentieth century to the Houston community? Just looking at the way things have changed over time, not just to the black community necessarily, but…
GF: Well, their influence, for the most part, you see… integration into the white hospitals didn’t begin until the 60s. And, though some white physicians treated black patients, and not very respectfully, I might add, but I think the black physicians did a great deal to elevate the healthcare status of certainly those persons they treated. I would say, it was not a – and I don’t want to use the word “militant” – but it was not a very political, I would say, group. Though, they were active politically in their own way. You’ll find among the black dentists more overtly active – there was Dr. Smith and a Dr. Nixon, I didn’t know him, I knew Dr. Smith – who were the…My vocabulary’s leaving me today. They were the complainants – that’s not the word I want – but the Smith Library over there by the University of Houston is named for Dr. Smith and he was the one whose name was on the Voting Rights…
LC: Oh, and he’s a dentist?
GF: Yes, and a Dr. Nixon, too. I would think that many of the black physicians were active behind the scenes more than out in front.
LC: But it must have made a big difference in the community, I would think. What about Houston, what would you say it is about Houston that may have been different from other places? You know, the fact that your father was here for all of his career.
GF: The hospitals. That’s one of the first things. Well, there was Flint Goodrich in New Orleans and, I’m not sure, I think that was a black hospital. Nashville had Hubbard Hospital, and Mound Bayou, Mississippi, but that was an all black town. There weren’t any black hospitals, except maybe some places a black doctor might have what he called a clinic, but in terms of a first class hospital, there weren’t…and so, when a black doctor had a patient who needed to go to the hospital, he went to a white doctor – had to go to a white doctor.
LC: Since Houston was a bigger city than some of the other options, maybe was that an attraction?
GF: I’m sure, I’m sure. I’m sure my parents left Ashdown for educational reasons, because there was no place for us to go to school. My sister went to Meharry, too.
LC: Oh, was she a doctor?
GF: She was an ophthalmologist.
LC: Alright, and were your parents…obviously both you and your sister got higher education and were very successful, so your parents must have been a big influence in that?
GF: Oh, sure.
LC: This project that we’re going to be working on will eventually travel to area high schools in Houston and the idea that Houston Medical Forum has is to encourage high school students, especially minorities, to pursue or to look into pursuing medical careers. And so, something that could be difficult for some students to imagine, especially if they don’t come from a home that’s very supportive. What would you tell high school students?
GF: Well, I think exposure to…Well, I retired in ’85, but just before I retired, the National Examining Board for medical students introduced an essay. It had not always been a part of what we call the MCAT, the medical college application… Because my mother had died and she was up there with me in March, and my friend headed the premise, “Why don’t you stay and teach the writing?” And I did that until last summer. I’m not going back this summer, but I taught writing to students interested in health professions, to help them pass the MCAT exam. I would say that with any students, high school students, you have to expose them to - teach them to read, please, and read so they have something to write about – but expose them to opportunities or to people, young people, in the fields. One of my friends, who was a dentist, stopped by this morning, and we were talking and she says – let’s see, she’s 50s – when she came through, it was you wanted to be a physician or a dentist… But now, the cost for medical training and setting up an office and the malpractice, that’s discouraging a lot of people. I would not discourage people from going into that field, certainly, but I would let them know it’s not all rosy.
LC: You mentioned the younger physicians, and you said you think that’s a good overall model?
GF: Yes, yes. Most of the ones that I encountered – and they came from schools all over the country – as a matter of fact, I had a student from the University of Houston; he was from Alvin. And, I had a couple of students from the University of Texas this summer. Up until this past summer, it was primarily open to minorities, and it was funded by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, but you can’t do that anymore, so it was open to everybody. So, we had had other white students, but this was the first summer we had more than usual. And most of them - I’m not sure the percentage of the ones who came through that program went on to med school, though some of them did, and some of them get discouraged. They’re “A” students in the sciences in their schools, but they come in and they take the practice MCAT, and then when that comes back, as I say to them every summer, “There are 15 people in this room. Multiply that by 1,000 and that’s how many people are going to be applying to med school when you are, and they all have the same requirements. All have a 3-point something. What do you have to offer.”
LC: Right, it needs to be something that stands out.
GF: You have to have, not some quirk, but you just have to be able. And be able to write.
LC: That’s important. That’s a good point. Ok, well, if you can think of anything – this is kind of a broad question – what do you think is the greatest contribution by an African-American physician to the medical field in Houston?
GF: That’s a very broad-based question… I guess the standards of excellence they set. That’s difficult to say, but I guess they certainly raised the bar with regard to the care of, not only the care of sick people, but in terms of letting people know about the preparation to get and maintain good health. But in terms of individuals, I don’t know. I was away from here a long time. My association was social, more than anything else.
LC: Well, that’s all the questions I had in mind. Is there anything else you can think of that we haven’t talked about? Anything else about your father?
GF: No, I don’t know, the only physician that’s still living here, who probably knew him – like Dr. Clemmons and all those came after he’d stopped – is Robert Bacon. Do you know him?
LC: I’ve seen the name before.
GF: He’s retired, but he came here in the early 50s. Robert Bacon, Sr. Robert Bacon, Jr. is a psychiatrist. Senior is a urologist. And he worked at the University of Texas, or Baylor or somewhere, after he retired, after he gave up his urology practice. I would think he’s probably the only one living because Dr. Perry came at the end of his practice. I mean, he may have known him. Dr. Mullins…all of them came in the late 60s.
LC: Right, because you had said Dr. Jones is a baby compared, which is true because she was born the year you all moved to Houston. But I guess she was one of the first women practicing here.
GF: Dr. Roett, you mean?
LC: Doctor…
GF: Edith Irby Jones? Oh yes, well she came here long after… I know who she is, and I’ve met her, but I don’t know her.
LC: She was here in the early 60s. Do you have anything paraphernalia-wise… or anything you can recommend that you know your father might have written that’s been published?
GF: No, nothing that’s he’s written…
LC: …Or that was written about him?
GF: Well, now that I might… Medical Forum, for several years, gave dinners in his name. I have a plaque, one or two plaques. Somewhere I have a picture of a meeting of the board at St. Elizabeth’s. And I may have some articles, but I have to find them.
LC: That’s not something that I need to have today, but later when the Medical Forum does produce this exhibit, they’re going to want visuals, and we’re just looking for anything that’s hidden, that people have that we might be able to borrow a copy.
GF: Ok, I can take you…
Next Interview: Dr. Bernard Harris, Jr.