Dr. L. Natalie Carroll
Interview with: Dr. L. Natalie Carroll
Interviewed by: Yimei Zhang
Date: March 29, 2005, and April 11, 2005
Transcribed by: Yimei Zhang
YZ: Dr. Carroll, first, can you tell me your full name?
NC: I am Dr. L. Natalie Carroll. I don’t usually use my first name.
YZ: What kind of medicine are you practicing?
NC: I am an Obstetrician/Gynecologist.
YZ: Can you tell me something about your background? For example, where and when were you born? What encouraged you to pursue a career as a physician?
NC: I was born in Nashville, Tennessee at Meharry Medical College, when my father was in medical school. My mother, at the same time, was the assistant librarian for the medical library there at Meharry Medical College. And what encouraged me to go into medicine was that I enjoy science and I enjoy people. I thought medicine was a perfect combination, if you like both things.
YZ: When did you go to the medical school?
NC: I entered medical school in 1970. I decided to be physician when I was eight, and I thought very strongly about it when I was five.
YZ: Which medical school did you go to?
NC: Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tennessee, and it was the same place that my father attended.
YZ: So your father was also a physician? Also in Houston?
NC: Yes.
YZ: So it’s a physician family! (laugh)
NC: Yes. My husband attended Meharry Medical College as well. And so did my cousin, a lot of us!
YZ: When did you graduate from medical school? NC: In 1974.
YZ: After graduation, you moved to Houston?
NC: No. I attended Meharry, and during that period of time I did part of my medical school training at Howard University and part at Mass General Hospital at Harvard University Medical School. And then when I completed my medical education, I did what they call your post-graduate medical training, I did that in surgery and Obstetrics and Gynecology at the Washington Hospital Center in Washington D. C.
YZ: When did you move here and why to Houston?
NC: Well, in between I worked for the Army, because my husband was in the Army. I ran the women’s health clinic at Fort Hood, in Fort Hood, Texas. After that, we came to Houston. I came to Houston because it’s my home. I was born in Nashville, because my father was in medical school, but my whole family has been in Texas for three generations.
YZ: How long have you been a member of Houston Medical Forum?
NC: I have been a member of Houston Medical Forum from like about the month I got started in practice, which would have been in September 1980.
YZ: Have you ever held any officer positions in this organization?
NC: Yes. I was vice-president. I think I was a member-at-large at some point, and…I don’t know what else! I can’t remember anymore!
YZ: Are you a member of Harris County Medical Society?
NC: I am. I joined the Harris County Medical Society long after I joined the Houston Medical Forum. I probably didn’t join it for a year or more after I joined the Houston Medical Forum.
YZ: Do you remember which year?
NC: Probably it was 1981. Or it might have been the latter part of 1980, because I was not necessarily pushing that hard. The Houston Medical Forum is very near and dear to my heart.
YZ: What kind of role do you thing African-American physicians have played in Harris County Medical Society?
NC: I think they have played a very active role. Many of those physicians are no longer living, but they actually integrated the Harris County Medical Society, because it was not originally inclusive of African-American physicians. They started including in the latter part of the 1960s, at the same time that they integrated the hospital staffs here in Houston, in Harris County. Many of those physicians are not living now, but they did integrate and I think they’ve done a lot, including serving in different communities within Harris County, and we’ve continued to be very active within the Harris County Medical Society.
YZ: Besides these organizations, have you ever held any positions in other organizations in Houston?
NC: Not medical in nature. I am active in several, …a member of the Houston Gynecological Society; I am also a member of the Texas Medical Association, which is a large organization, under which the Harris County Medical Society functions. I am active with the Lone Star State Medical Association, under which the Houston Medical Forum functions. That’s the state organization for African-American physicians and I have been president of that.
YZ: When were you elected as the president of National Medical Association?
NC: I was elected in 2001, and I became the president in 2002. My tenure was from 2002 to 2003. I was actually inducted as president in Hawaii.
YZ: Can you tell me something about your experience in the National Medical Association?
NC: Within the National Medical Association, for nearly 12, 13 years, I was on the board of trustee for the National Medical Association. My last year on the board of trustees, I was chairman of the board of trustees. Then I was president-elect, then president, and then immediate past president. During the time that I was president, my thing was the viability of the practice of medicine for African-American physicians. I spoke a lot on the health disparity within the African-American community, the ability of African-American physicians to remain in practice with the onerous regulations associated with Medicaid and Medicare and that in comparison to the remuneration that we receive which has been greatly decreased while, I think, in terms of being able to take care of our patients has greatly increased, secondary, not only to the regulatory agencies and the insurance companies, but also because of the high cost of medical liability insurance. So I spent a lot of time talking to CMS, the Center for Medicaid and Medicare, about what needed to be done that related to that and some of the things that we ought to be able to do to address those issues. I did that in relationship – actually it’s not just African-American physicians, but all physicians who are having difficulty practicing in the present environment. And this is something I pointed out. I said, we have a situation where we are paying so much for the medical liability insurance that we cannot remain in practice. We are not getting paid enough to cover the payment of that insurance. Many of people have left practice, they’ve retired, they’ve just quit. And I think that’s sad because it affects access to care because they don’t have the large number of physicians within the African-American community or any minority community to begin with, and then when they leave because it’s just untenable to remain in practice, it becomes a real problem. Many of the patients in minority communities do not like to leave their communities for health care. One, because they are more familiar with their community; they are often very familiar with their physicians, and their physicians are very familiar with them, their healthcare, their family, their environment, and therefore, much more likely to take good care of them. And that is not to say that other physicians would not take good care of them, but it is to say that they are far less likely to be familiar with their surroundings and environment. And I do think that being aware of a patient’s environment and the community in which they live makes a difference in terms of your being able to address their health problem, because it isn’t always medication that makes a difference.
YZ: Dr. Edith Irby Jones was elected as the president of the National Medical Association before you were elected, so what kind of role do you think Houston African-American physicians have played in the National Medical Association?
NC: I think we have played a large role. Dr. Earl Lord was the chairman of the board of the National Medical Association about 12 years ago. He is still practicing here in Houston. We had another gentleman…Dr. Paris Bransford was the chairman of the board of National Medical Association Board of Trustees. So, we’ve had several people who have done that throughout the years. And the other thing is that so many of our physicians, they’ve played a role in the National Medical Association, but they have also played huge roles in the health care of Houston. Certainly greater than two thirds of the 20th century medicine was segregated in the city of Houston and therefore what that means is that African Americans were not cared for in Herman Hospital, St. Joseph Hospital, because those were (quote, unquote) “white hospitals.” We had the black hospital, Riverside General Hospital, which was originally Negro General Hospital, and St. Elizabeth Hospital in Fifth Ward. St Elizabeth’s functioned for probably about 25, almost 30 years. Riverside General Hospital continues, and it started in the early 20s. But in any case, we have played a major role in the care of patients in our community and the quality of care that our patients have received – and it has not been poor care. Interestingly enough, it was one of the African-American dentists who stated that it’s very interesting that there’s not ever been a study done on what happens with African-American patients who are being taken care of, and have been taken care of their entire lives, by African American physicians within the community. And oftentimes you’ll find that these patients will live long and satisfying lives and have been in pretty good health as well. Although we have experienced health disparity, they’ve been more when we’ve stepped outside of our community physicians in terms of being able to access health care.
YZ: You talked about the African-American hospitals, like Riverside Hospital, St. Elizabeth Hospital – have you ever been involved with these hospitals?
NC: Yes, I have. I was on the staff at both of them. I was on the staff at St. Elizabeth Hospital until it closed. I was in a group of physicians that tried to reopen it, and we were not very successful, I think in part because it was not intended for us to be successful, but the Riverside General Hospital, I have been on the staff there for years. I have not been on the staff there probably for the last five years, but that’s mostly because I do obstetrics and they really don’t have an active obstetrics unit. On both hospitals, I was taking care of patients there and delighted in doing so, and for my patients it actually was better because the food was more to their liking.
YZ: Do you know Omni Hospital?
NC: I knew of it. I did not practice there. My husband, who was a physician did practice there.
YZ: So, can you tell us something about that, because we’re collecting information and we have information about Riverside Hospital and we have some about St. Elizabeth’s, but we have almost nothing about Omni Hospital.
NC: I cannot tell you about Omni Hospital because I really did not, just didn’t have enough experience to do that. There is also another black hospital here, called Lockwood Hospital, and that I know more about, but not because I practiced there, because it was not in existence by the time I came home to practice.
YZ: So can you tell me something about Lockwood Hospital?
NC: It was a hospital founded by a group of African-American physicians. Some of whom are living; several of whom are no longer living, but they had their offices there. They delivered babies, they did surgery, they did everything. It was a good situation for the north side of the town. They were right inside of the 610 Loop on Lockwood. It did very well and flourished for probably 15 or more years.
YZ: Do you know when it was closed?
NC: Not exactly. I think it was in the early 70s or late 60s.
YZ: My next question is what kind of role do you think African-American women have played in the medical field in Houston? I know you and Dr. Jones are both very active.
NC: Right. But, before Dr. Jones got here, there was a Dr. Thelma Patten that was here. Dr. Brooks…she was an internist. Thelma Pattern was a general practitioner, and they were the main two here. And then Dr. Clemente Johnson practiced Obstetrics and Gynecology. She was in the Heights area on Yale Street. I think we’ve all had a role to play and we’ve contributed quite a bit to the community. Of course, the women did not want to go to male physicians, but most of them, with the exception of those who did Ob/GYN, they took care of everybody. I think they did a lot in terms of contributing to good health care in community. Dr. Thelma Pattern was, for the most part, before my time, but I know when I was a child, she was here. Dr Catherine Roett was the first board certified African-American pediatrician here in Houston, but she was probably one of the first board certified pediatricians, period, in Houston. She was fantastic and she truly made a difference in our community.
YZ: And she graduated from Baylor, right?
NC: No. She graduated from Howard University in Washington, DC. She trained at Meharry and at Howard and then came here. She was on the teaching staff of both Baylor and University of Texas. She was an absolutely delightful and wonderful woman. She made a huge difference in Third Ward for children. I think that would probably just about cover the female physicians starting early on. When I came in, I guess I was probably the initiation of a wave of African-American women coming in, because the year after, other women came in, a great number at that time.
YZ: Do you recall any other African-American physicians that have made contributions to the health of Houston area residents from early 20th century to now?
NC: That is all that I can tell you for right now, but if there is some way that you could get in touch with Dr. Parker, Dr. B. P. Hollins…
YZ: Yes. One of our team members already talked with him.
NC: Because he may be able to tell you more. I’m not remembering, but I think I told you everybody, but Dr. Clemente Johnson is still here and would probably be a wealth of information. And I think that’s about it for now, but I can do this again later if you want to. (The second part of the interview was conducted on April 11, 2005.)
YZ: Ok, Dr. Carroll, let’s continue our interview.
NC: Ok.
YZ: To what extent do you think the achievements of African-American physicians have influenced other African Americans, especially the younger generation?
NC: I think, to some degree, they’ve influenced young people in terms of going into medicine and, maybe not always picking the same specialty, but becoming physicians. And sometimes, then encouraged them to go to other areas that are a part of medicine, but not necessarily physicians. They may have chosen to go into nursing, pharmacist, things of that nature. I think they’ve done a lot to encourage and act as role models through the years. We have had African-American physicians here in Houston, at least since the… , about 1918, or 19, they have been some here. Originally, they were mostly and traditionally called “Fifth Ward” and “Fourth Ward,” and then also “Third Ward.” And I guess maybe the last 40 years there were some that were called “Sunnyside,” and in the north part of town “Settegast” and “Acreage Homes,” but we have always had African-American physicians here since the early 1900s.
YZ: How has the medical field changed in Houston for African-American physicians over times?
NC: I think we still do not have the same access to care depending on where we have to go for our care. But on the other hand, medical care has been really pretty good for people who have been able to access care with private practitioners who are African Americans within the community. As one of my patients once said, she said that it’s very interesting that they have never done a study on patients who have seen African-American physicians their entire life. There is a great number of the population in Houston, which have had most pf their care within the African-American physician community. They were delivered by African Americans, they had surgery by African Americans, and they took care of them until their lives ended. Many of them lived very long and productive lives. So I think we’ve done probably a quiet job of making sure that people have had good care. I also think that once segregation ended, many of our physicians served as volunteers and on teaching staff, both at Baylor and UT. I think that helps in terms of just…our being there, making a difference in terms of the kind and quality of care that African Americans receive, simply because we were there, so it was not as easy as it might otherwise have been, perhaps, not to give the kind of care that not you, and I don’t you or me, but that some people, or some other races, may choose not to give to African Americans simply because of personal biases. And I think oftentimes there are physicians who don’t even recognize their personal biases, but they just simply practice medicine in their manner and decide that a woman may not need a certain kind of care because she is a woman. You know like, she walks in with chest pain and somebody typical immediately assumes that that chest pain is gas, hysteria, whereas if it were a man, they would think it was a heart attack, and they would test to be sure of what it was. And then it has also been true with African-American patients. So I think it makes a difference. I think being in different places and increasing our numbers in being in different locations has made a difference.
YZ: This Houston Medical Forum Museum Project will tour area high schools as a means to encourage minority students to pursue medical careers, so do you have any advice to the young generation?
NC: First of all, the thing I would certainly say to anybody that is in school is that I truly hope that someone, somewhere, will be interested in going into medicine. For me, as I told you at the beginning of our interview, I think that the practice of medicine is a perfect combination of science and caring and interaction with other human beings, and I mean in terms of really being able to combine the two. I further think that within our community, we have very few physicians in comparison to other communities and I think it’s important to have physicians that look like us, and who are familiar with our culture, and therefore, better able to communicate and really understand our culture in the context of health care so that we can better give health care. And also I think it’s important for young persons to really strive to do well in school and to learn everything they can while they’re in school. Because in nearly every profession you enter, even if it isn’t medicine, you will end up using all of the things that you have encountered in school – the history, the social sciences – and so often we think that English, History, Geography, those things are insignificant for what it is we may chose to do, but in fact, there is probably nothing that we do that does not in fact require that we have some knowledge of these things. But I would certainly want to encourage our students to really consider going into the sciences, going into math, and nobody has to be perfect in math in order to go into medicine. You don’t have to be perfect in science, but you do have to really work hard, be interested, and commit yourself to doing as well as you can.
YZ: My last question! Do you have any memorabilia that represents your contributions, like photos, newspapers, and old documents?
NC: You know, I think I can find you some of those things and have them sent to you because having been the president of the National Medical Association, I think could probably get some copies of our newsletters and things of that nature that you could use.
YZ: Yes, that’s helpful!
NC: OK. I’ll check into that.
YZ: OK.
NC: And maybe you can check in with me at the end of the week?
YZ: Thank you!
NC: And thank you!
Next Interview: Dr. L. Natalie Carroll (second interview)