UH_One False Step_Rev Martin

July 7, 2015

Malachi Crawford

00:00:00 You ready?

Rev. Ray Martin

Yes, I’m ready.

Malachi Crawford

Okay, July 7, 2015, interview with the Reverend Ray Martin. So, Reverend Martin, can you tell me a little bit about where you were born, the neighborhood where you grew up, and your early experiences in school?

Rev. Ray Martin

I was born in Taylor, Texas—not Tyler, but Taylor—thirty‑six miles northeast of Austin, Texas. And that’s where I grew up. Then I went to school at O. L. Price High School. First it was Blackshear, but after I reached the eighth grade, they changed the name after the former principal who had died. His name was O. L.—his name was O. L. Price. So they named—so they renamed the school O. L. Price. First it was Blackshear, and they named it to O. L. Price.

Malachi Crawford

Can you tell me a little bit—just to go back—a little bit about your family history? Where is your family from and your parents and if you had any siblings?

Rev. Ray Martin

My mother was originally born in Rockne—Rockne, Texas. That’s down near—Schulenburg—south—a little south of Schulenburg. My father was born in Granger, Texas. That’s about twelve miles north of Taylor, Texas.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. When did you—what was life like in terms of your neighborhood and the community that you grew up in? What was life like as a kid, young man?

Rev. Ray Martin

The population of Taylor was about ten thousand or less. We had a—we did have a—we did have a—the school was an A school. You know, you’ve got your double‑A, A, and triple‑A. Taylor was an A school. There was a football team that we played, and I—and I was on the football team. Matter of fact, I played defensive end at Taylor until I joined the Air Force in 1954.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. What led you to join the Air Force?

Rev. Ray Martin

Well, originally I was supposed to go—I was going in the Marines with a friend of mine who was—who stayed there—well, actually my father had a couple of rent houses on the same lot that I was—the house that we lived in was on. And a friend of mine started staying in the house—one of the houses that was on the block that my father owned. So we was good friends, and we had decided somehow that we was going into the Marines. And matter of fact, we went over and everything—over to Austin—and signed up and everything. And during the time that we was going to do this, some more of my friends—we was all in school. I was still in—I was still in school when I went in the service. They went into the Air Force, and they sent some pictures back. And I was so impressed with what I saw. So instead of me going to the Marines with my friend, I followed them in the Air Force with these other guys who were also my friends. This was in 1954.

Malachi Crawford

00:05:09 Okay. So that period, 1954, is when they have the Brown vs. Board of Education ruling that desegregates public institutions. Let me ask you, your high school, was it segregated?

Rev. Ray Martin

It was segregated.

Malachi Crawford

Segregated by race? Okay. What was your experience in the military like?

Rev. Ray Martin

Now, when I went into the military, because of that ruling that had taken place, the service had integrated. I guess when my friends went in—well, I guess the thing that I can still remember, and remember clear, is the different guys who had already been on base and gone through basic training. They would be singing—especially those who was about to finish up the basic training—some were saying, “Three more weeks and we’ll be gone. We’ll be gone.” Then someone would say, “Two more weeks,” and some would saying—it got all the way down to the hours. And then it was getting really—and we were just getting there. And the newcomers they were calling rainbows because you still had on your regular clothes. You hadn’t even gotten—you were just getting on the base, and you had to be assigned to a barrack and everything and get your uniform. So somehow—the thing that was running through my mind because of this particular experience and them singing those various songs is how tough that basic training was going to be. And they was training—and they were singing those songs because they was—those who was already there was in the process of leaving. They was happy that they were going to be leaving. And we had to go through what they had gone through. And so there was a lot of expectation about—and anxiety—about what it was going to be—be about. And they was—and they was singing, especially those that had gotten down to two weeks—get all the way down to three or four days. You know, they was happy because they was going to get out of there. And we was coming in there, and we had to go through the whole—I think that boot camp had to be about—it had to be about eight weeks. I don’t remember too clearly. It was—it had to be at least two or three months, the boot camp was.

Malachi Crawford

00:08:20 Okay. And did you ever see combat? Or were you ever placed in a theater of war? Did you go to Korea and/or Vietnam?

Rev. Ray Martin

No. Matter of fact—let me see. When I went in—I went in, in ’54, and the Korean conflict was over at the time. But I did—I did—first I was stationed at—after I went up for Lackland Air Force Base and finished my basic training, I was stationed at Ellington Field, about eighteen miles out of Houston. And I was there for about—about a year and a half—and I was sent to Japan. And I was in Japan for—for—until I was discharged, and that was in ’57.

Malachi Crawford

Fifty‑seven. What did you do when you returned, when you were discharged? What happened?

Rev. Ray Martin

Well—well, I was—while I was stationed in Japan—because I had dropped out of school in tenth grade—but while I was in Japan, I was on a base where they had night classes. And I was able to—I was able to attain the GED. And when I got back to—when I was discharged and got back to the United States, I sent my paperwork to Austin, and Austin sent me a certificate that was equivalent to a high school diploma. And I was able to use that to enroll in Prairie View.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. So you went to Prairie View A&M?

Rev. Ray Martin

Yeah.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. Excellent. Your college experience—what did you major in while you were at Prairie View A&M? And what was college life like for you?

Rev. Ray Martin

It—it—well, I could appreciate my college life. It was a real nice experience. And everything about college was nice. And actually I was able to discover that if I would have stayed—wouldn’t have gone in the service and stayed and just came from getting to college out of high school, it would probably have been even a different experience because in high school I played football. And I was a—and I was a tremendous defensive end—I played defensive end. And I was just a real quality football player. Matter of fact, I played while I was in the service. But when I got to—when I got to college—

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Rev. Ray Martin

—if I would have stayed the full four years, well, then I probably would eventually been playing defensive end in college. But I didn’t because—because there at Prairie View, I went out for the team. I made the team, but I was mostly on the bench because they had—I was just a freshman, and they had those guys that had been there, some of them up to four years and getting ready to graduate. And they’d been playing, so even though I might have been pretty good, I wasn’t able to get their position because they’d been there and proving—proving themselves. So I was there—so I left Prairie View and transferred to TSU and basically ran into the same experience. And somehow while I was experiencing that, I got caught up in the boxing program at South Central YMCA, which is about three blocks down from—down from TSU. And I got caught up in that, and I left—dropped out of the football because I was thinking that I should have been on the field playing. And I’m just a freshman. I was—I was just a freshman when I got to Prairie View. I was at Prairie View for a year, but I never did get a chance to play. Well, I was on the team, but I never did really become a first‑string player. The same thing happened at TSU because I dropped out. If I would have stayed in Prairie View for the second year, I probably would have been—got a chance to play more and been able to better prove myself. But I left and went to TSU, so I had to go through the same routine there at TSU that I went through at Prairie View. So for that reason I kind of pulled away from playing the football and got off into boxing down at the YMCA. And I guess it was from there that eventually led to where I am at the present time. But it all started there at—the boxing phase—it all started at the South Central YMCA.

Malachi Crawford

South Central YMCA. So let me ask—before we get into boxing, I just want to make sure that the history is okay. When did you—at this time—had you met your wife by this time? Or had you got into the clergy at all? Or did—were you involved with boxing? Is that your focus at this time in your life?

Rev. Ray Martin

00:03:33 Yeah. Boxing was my focus at that time because, matter of fact, the reason that I went in the service is for—was because I wanted to box. I had been listening to the juniors’ fights and what have you. And I just figured, if I’m out on a base—and my brother had gone—had gone in the service earlier. He was in the Army. I was in the Air Force. But they had the boxing team, and he sent back some pictures showing himself in his—in his trunks and everything, looking so good. And so I said that that’s what I wanted to do because going back to Joe Louis, I always wanted to be a boxer just like Joe Louis. And then my brother got an opportunity. He was looking so good in his uniform. But he was in the Army. And so I said to myself that I would go into the Air Force because I’m thinking that if the Army had an Air Force—if the Army had a boxing team, the Air Force probably would have it too. But I never could get on the base for the boxing team. I did get a chance to play football, but I never did get a chance to get on the boxing team because none of the bases that I was stationed at didn’t have a boxing team.

Malachi Crawford

When you joined—when you started boxing in the late 1950s, let me ask you, who were the major boxers in Houston, and who—who were the major boxers in Houston? And then who also trained you?—either question you want to do.

Rev. Ray Martin

Okay, when I got started in boxing in Houston, Cleve “Big Cat” Williams was the top fighter at the time. Of course you had Rip Brown but—but Rip Brown was a welterweight. But Cleve was a heavyweight. And I was fighting mostly heavyweight then. And Cleve was—as you know, Cleve fought Muhammad Ali a couple of times. And I used to work out with Cleve “Big Cat” Williams all the time.

Malachi Crawford

So when you started at the South Central YMCA, what happened? Was that the start of your amateur boxing career?

Rev. Ray Martin

My amateur—right.

Malachi Crawford

Okay, and where did it go from there?

Rev. Ray Martin

Okay. Now, here—unfortunately at the time, they weren’t allowing Blacks to fight in the Golden Gloves here in Houston or in Texas, period. Blacks couldn’t fight in the Golden Gloves. So it was an attorney who was a friend to the YMCA from Des Moines, Iowa, and that was Seymour Lieberman. And he made some contacts out there in Des Moines to make it possible for the Y to be able to send—it was three of us that went to—first it was—first we went to St. Louis, Missouri, and then the second year we went to Des Moines, Iowa.

Malachi Crawford

00:07:21 Okay. So—and this was the Golden Gloves that you got—?

Rev. Ray Martin

Golden Gloves—for the Golden Gloves.

Malachi Crawford

Wow. How did you do? How was your experience?

Rev. Ray Martin

Okay. Off in St. Louis, I won two—two fights—and then I was eliminated in the finals. Off in Des Moines, Iowa—well, I was eliminated before I got to the finals in St. Louis—but in Des Moines, Iowa, I fought all the way to the finals. I was eliminated in the finals.

Malachi Crawford

So let me make a slight transition here. When did you—when did you first hear about Muhammad Ali and/or Cassius Clay? Had you heard about him at this time? When you were an amateur and a professional boxer, had you heard about—? At that time, I believe he was using the name Cassius Clay. Had you heard about him at that time?

Rev. Ray Martin

Let me see. It was—let me see. When did I—? No, not when I got started at it, because I went in wanting to be like Joe Louis. Louis was there. And it was after I was discharged from the service that Muhammad Ali finally came on the scene. I’m trying to think of the year that Ali—I don’t remember too clear, but it was after I was discharged from the service that Ali came on the scene, because I was discharged from the service in ’57.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. Okay. Houston, Texas, in the early 1960s—was the city segregated? What was life like for African-Americans as you can remember?

Rev. Ray Martin

Yeah. Well, one of the things that got started when I came to Houston were—there was a sit‑in—a sit‑in movement started with Eldrewey Stearns and Holly Hogrobrooks and a number of other students. They was sitting in there at a Walgreen and some other lunch counter. They were sitting in there, trying to integrate those—those particular restaurants that they had off at those places.

Malachi Crawford

00:10:37 From what you observed, from what you saw, how did African-Americans feel about integration? How did African-Americans feel about the Civil Rights Movement here in Houston, Texas, just from what you saw and what you encountered?

Rev. Ray Martin

Yeah. Well, they had—the young people, and mostly students from TSU there, and Eldrewey Stearns—and I remember that name. It stands out because he was one of the leaders. And then Holly Hogrobrooks, she was another one. She was pretty active. And they had some more, but I don’t—can’t recall their names, but I knew them. They started that particular movement, and somehow—well, I know that Mr. Mease who was over the YMCA at the time, allowed them to come and hold a meeting thing there. So they had some support from community leaders because Mr. Mease gave them—gave them his blessing. So—so they had reasonably good support.

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Malachi Crawford

Let me ask you, do you—can you tell me who was Lloyd Wells, and what was your relationship to Mr. Wells?

Rev. Ray Martin

Well, see, Wells—well I’m—well—

Malachi Crawford

And/or when you first met Mr. Wells.

Rev. Ray Martin

It just so happened (laughs)—boy, this is deep—I was working. I used to work at a friend’s club. His name was Calvin McAdams. He’s deceased now. He had a club across the street there called Club 500. And matter of fact, I used to be his doorman at the Club 500. Now, Lloyd C. A. Wells’ place was right across the street here on—in the same block that the El Dorado was in. Matter of fact, it was in one of those office spaces up under the El Dorado. And somehow I got a chance to know Lloyd pretty good. (laughs) Matter of fact, Lloyd had this white convertible Cadillac. And I got a—like I say, I got a chance to know him and got a chance to go to various schools with him while they took pictures and what have you. I used to chauffeur him around and take his car and get it washed and everything. So I knew Lloyd pretty well. We was pretty good—well—well, I guess you could say I knew him pretty good. And I did different little things for him.

Malachi Crawford

00:02:08 Okay. Okay. Let me ask you, when did you first hear about and/or meet Muhammad Ali?

Rev. Ray Martin

Let me see. Restate that question again.

Malachi Crawford

When did you first hear about or meet Muhammad Ali?

Rev. Ray Martin

Um‑hm. Um‑hm. Okay. Now, here—now, again—now, Lloyd Wells—and I don’t know if Lloyd is the one who introduced me to Muhammad Ali or not. Let me see. How did that happen? But I know that Lloyd was extremely good friends of Muhammad Ali. Let me see. When I—I’m trying to see—how did I meet Ali? But—and I—it evidently must have happened around the same time we had our sparring match out in the Astro Arena. He was here to fight Jim Ellis, I think it was. And it was in 1971. I think I got one of the posters. I’ll see if I can find it and let you see it before we finish. But anyway—and I don’t know how I made that hookup. I don’t remember too clear exactly how I made that hookup. But anyway, he was fighting Jim Ellis. So he was working out there in the Astro Arena. And I was there at one of his workouts. And somehow he challenged me to get in the ring with him. I done forgot exactly how that happened. But the first time I got in the ring with him out there in the Astro—at the Astroworld—no, Astro Hall—I knocked him down twice. He claimed he slipped, but it wasn’t no slip. And then—so after he had his fight and everything and left, and he came back. I think he was fighting Jim Ellis at that time, and he came back to fight Cleve Williams. And naturally, having knocked Ali out twice, it was something that I had to talk about. So it got back to him, what I had done. And it just so happened, when he was here to fight the Big Cat, it was one night, and we was having a boxing show here at the gym. He had got on the radio, saying what he was going to do to that fighting preacher. I don’t know if I have a copy of that tape, but I might be able to find a copy of it. And he was saying what he was going to do to me for going around bragging about how I knocked him down. And the people—he was on the radio saying that—so the place was packed. And he came in. And when he came in, pulling off his shirt and everything, challenging me in the ring, and that’s when I got in the ring and put him down for a third time. Of course he claimed he slipped. (laughs)

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Malachi Crawford

Okay. I’m just going to check right there. I just want to make sure I have everything.

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Malachi Crawford

All right. So, Reverend Martin, let’s talk about Houston during the mid‑1960s and specifically the Vietnam War. As best you can recall from watching television, reading newspapers, your friends, acquaintances, did African-Americans—or the people that you knew—how did they—how did they feel about the Vietnam War? Did they support the war effort? What was their attitudes toward America and the war in Vietnam?

Rev. Ray Martin

Well, here—it—I don’t guess anyone would at any time appreciate war, but Ali took the position against it. It was sort of—because he made his feelings known, because he made the statement that—I think he made the statement that the Vietnamese hadn’t done anything to him. And it was for this reason when they tried to draft him into the service, he refused—he refused to go—go in the service—because he didn’t—evidently he didn’t believe in the war. He didn’t think it was a just war and—because he had to pay a pretty dear price for it because they wouldn’t let him fight for a while. But he was—he was—had strong feelings against the war. So he was willing to make that sacrifice. I think that was pretty manly of him because the average person would not have given up what he gave up to be able to stand up for his belief.

Malachi Crawford

Do you recall how any of your associates or how you yourself—what your thoughts were about that and how others perceived it? Did African-Americans in Houston support Ali? At the time, he was here in Houston, and he lived here in Houston. And his case was here in Houston. And so, just from what you recall, did African-Americans support Ali in—here in Houston?

Rev. Ray Martin

Yeah. Well, from what I saw and observed, because you know this was going just a little bit—a little bit after the student movement had gotten started there at TSU about the protests and everything, about them not letting Blacks sit at the lunch counter. So—so Ali’s stance was somewhat similar to that. So he had support from that group. And then I thought—personally I thought it was a just stance too, and I appreciated what he was doing and just wished I had the nerves and that—the position that I could make the same type of impact that he had.

Malachi Crawford

00:03:50 When did you—when did you first enter the ministry? Was it around this time? Was it prior to 1965? Do you recall?

Rev. Ray Martin

Prior to when?

Malachi Crawford

Nineteen sixty‑five or thereabouts.

Rev. Ray Martin

Yeah. Yes, I was called to the ministry in 19—it had to be 1960. Let me see—’60—let me see. Let me see. Excuse me. I’m trying to—it had to be around—no, it had to be around 1965 when I was called into the ministry because—and I’m trying to get those dates—I think—can you give me a minute to get myself—excuse me—

Malachi Crawford

Yeah. No, that’s fine. That’s fine.

Rev. Ray Martin

Let me see. I’ve got something with that written on it.

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Rev. Ray Martin

I’m ready.

Malachi Crawford

Okay, so, Reverend Martin, I just asked if you can recall when you first entered the ministry—in about what period, what time?

Rev. Ray Martin

I know the pastor—the Reverend David Milner was the second who was pastor of Jerusalem Missionary Baptist Church. And it had to be in 1964, matter of fact, when I was licensed. And I should have been ordained in around 1970.

Malachi Crawford

00:00:41 Okay. What led you to take up the ministry at this point?

Rev. Ray Martin

Well, I guess it was the influence again that my pastor who was licensed and ordained into the ministry, the Reverend D. Leon Everett II, was very active off in the community, working the various protests and what have you that was taking place. And matter of fact, he was the first Black to sit on the Houston Independent School Board. And I guess the things that I was able to see him doing and the influence he was able to have on the overall—not just religion—but the overall social structure that was taking—struggle that was taking place at the time, which impressed me to believe that maybe I could—if I went into the ministry—I could also use my influence as a minister to be able to do some of the things that he was able to accomplish.

Malachi Crawford

So let me ask you, was that related to your start of the PABA? And—well, let me just ask you, was that related in any way to your start of PABA, because you became known as the fighting preacher. And so what was the relationship between your ministry and your boxing? How did that association get made?

Rev. Ray Martin

It was because I had gone into the ministry. Matter of fact, I was licensed into the ministry—it had to be around nineteen—I can’t put—put my hands on it. But when I started boxing, I was already in the ministry. So when I started boxing, they called me the fighting preacher since I was a preacher and decided to box. And I got into boxing as a professional, and I had my first fight in 1966. So that put me—that means that I had to go into the ministry just maybe a couple of years before that because—I’m trying to think. I know when I fought Ali, I was—I had the sparring match with Ali—I was already in the ministry. That was in—I was thinking first that was in 1970.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. Let me ask you, why did you start the PABA?

Rev. Ray Martin

00:04:13 Well, the PABA was really the byproduct of another program that I had started. And I guess boxing was something that—was something that I was off into because, as a young person and doing the amateur career, I was off into boxing. It was something that I liked, and it was something that had done a great deal for me. And I see that I could probably start a boxing program, and, like it helped me, I could probably help other—other kids who wanted to get off into that. And they probably wouldn’t have all the trouble that I had, trying to get involved into boxing, because we had kind of broken through some of the segregation there—that was there. So I figured that, through boxing, we could not only help the kids get out of their—off the streets and off into some type of organized activity. Then most of the kids, who would probably get into some type of trouble with fighting or what have you, be individuals who have that boxing—that mentality that would—that would make them strong‑minded and strong‑willed enough to get off into boxing and do pretty good—pretty good in boxing. So I say to keep from letting them—like for myself—getting off into trouble with that extra courage that they’d have to do extraordinary things—that it took courage and strength to do—let them pull it off into boxing. Then maybe they’d, like I always dreamed of, could become a Joe Louis or a Muhammad Ali at that time.

Malachi Crawford

Let me ask you, when did you—when did you start the PABA? And by—what does that acronym mean, PABA, just for—?

Rev. Ray Martin

Progressive Amateur Boxing Association.

Malachi Crawford

And when did you first start?

Rev. Ray Martin

Okay. Well, I first—now, PABA was actually organized and chartered by the State of Texas October 29, 1969—PABA itself. But I was off into various boxing programs before that. Matter of fact—matter of fact, in 1966 I worked off in the—that’s when they started that first summer youth program because of all of the riots and things that was taking place throughout the country. And they took the—they took the—came up with this—these funds. And they started funding programs during the summer to keep the riots and things from continuing to take place. And this was in 1966. Matter of fact, the Office of Economic Opportunity was also—got started doing that same thing. I think that was under the Kennedy administration—Kennedy administration—I think it’s present law. Someone that was somewhat directly associated with the one who came up with these got these fellows from the government to start these summer programs. And I worked in the first summer program that they had here in Houston, called Operation Champ. I was there and involved in the park. That was in 1966. Matter of fact, I got a plaque somewhere on the wall of that 1966 Operation Champ program.

Malachi Crawford

So what was Operation Champ? What was it? Was it towards boxing? Was it a—was it a summer program geared towards introducing kids to boxing?

Rev. Ray Martin

00:09:03 No, no, no. That was just a summer program. And now, exactly why they named it Operation Champ, I don’t know. But it was designed—if you remember all the riots and things that got started during the—around 1964 or ’65 and ’66. So they came up with these funds to start these summer programs to give the kids something to do during the summer so that they could kind of—hopefully kind of eliminate some of the riots that was taking place throughout the—throughout America. It was happening all over. And here in Houston, they had a few.

Malachi Crawford

Let me ask you, when you sparred with—and I’m going to sort of begin asking you a little bit—questions about Muhammad Ali.

Rev. Ray Martin

Right.

Malachi Crawford

So when you sparred with Muhammad Ali, was that here at the PABA? I mean, you said the first one was at the Astro—Astrodome.

Rev. Ray Martin

Astro—it was in the Astro Arena. He was here to fight Jim Ellis.

Malachi Crawford

Right.

Rev. Ray Martin

And our—let me see—you haven’t seen the picture. I got the picture somewhere—one of those—the knockdown in the Astro Hall.

Malachi Crawford

Can you tell me a little bit about that, just in terms of how the community supported the PABA, how it—how the community came out with respect to that experience?

Rev. Ray Martin

Okay. Well, and Ali did—Ali even participating and engaged in that because it was really Ali’s show. And he wanted for PABA to bring recognition to PABA and the work they were doing—we were doing here—because somehow he liked the work PABA was doing. He liked what we was about. And it was for this reason he allowed the first sparring match that took place there in the Astro Hall to take place. And then the second one, he was back here to fight Jim Ellis. And he came to PABA—

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Rev. Ray Martin

—at that time. And that one took place—I need that tape. I don’t have it.

Malachi Crawford

So you guys marketed on the radio.

Rev. Ray Martin

Yeah.

Malachi Crawford

What radio station?

Rev. Ray Martin

KCOH. Yeah.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. Okay. Marketed on the radio. Somebody did the flyers that I see. Who did the flyers? I mean, you had some support—

Rev. Ray Martin

Oh. Oh. Oh, yeah, right. This is—this was the first knockdown out there in the Astro Arena. Right. We had—well, PABA had this made up after that first fight to just kind of push it. Oh, yeah, that was on July 23, 1971, at the Astro Hall, but—so the second one had to be around ’72 or ’73 because that one took place here. He had came—he had come back to Houston to fight. If I’m not mistaken, it was Jim Ellis—either Buster—Buster Madison—or Jim Ellis. But anyway, that second time that he came back, I had been going around bragging about the fact that I had knocked him down and what have you. So he went on the radio, on the Ralph Cooper Show, saying what he was going to do to that fighting preacher that’s been going around talking about the fact that I’d knocked him down. He was going to come over there, and he was—and what he was going to do to me and what have you, that all of us—it would be bad. It just happened that was the night we was having a boxing show here. So the place was packed because they had heard him on the radio talking about what he was going to do, so they wanted to be here to see that. So he came in, and, sure enough, the place was packed. He was pulling off his shirt and what have you, saying he wanted that fighting preacher. And that’s when he got in the ring. And I don’t have—I’ve got a picture of that knockdown somewhere. But anyway, that’s when I knocked him down for the third time. But again he claimed he slipped.

Malachi Crawford

00:02:24 Okay. Okay. So let me ask you, when—and just from what you recall, were there any other ministers or African-American clergy persons that supported Ali’s position on Vietnam and/or supported African-Americans choosing not to fight in Vietnam, here in Houston?

Rev. Ray Martin

Well, not to my knowledge. Everyone could appreciate what Ali was doing, but no one—I can—I can’t recall no group forming some type of support group, per se. But they—all of them appreciated what he was doing and what have you. But they didn’t want to step out there and get involved in it. I don’t guess they didn’t have the courage to do that.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. What, may I ask, is that in your hand? Is that—?

Rev. Ray Martin

Oh, this—this is a picture of—of the boxing group. And, as you can see, there ain’t no Blacks on it, per se. But that’s the USA boxing group. Now, at the time that picture was taken, Blacks were allowed to fight in the Golden Gloves or what have you. Matter of fact, I was a member of this particular group here. I’m not in that particular picture, but I was a member of that group. But—but—but integration had come into—into boxing at that point, though.

Malachi Crawford

Let me ask you, had you met George Foreman, another boxer from Houston, Texas, around this time? Had you known of Foreman in and around the late ’60s, early ’70s?

Rev. Ray Martin

Now, on George—right after George had won the Olympics—at that time, it was before PABA was organized. I was working for an organization called HOPE, and it was over on Lyons Avenue in Fifth Ward. And George lived in Fifth Ward. And it just so happened, on this particular day, I was down at a little African-American gift store. A friend of mine owned it. And I—and I was talking with him. And George had just won the Olympics, and he came into the store. And I didn’t know who he was at the time. I hadn’t ever met him before that particular time. But my friend knew who he was. And he got George’s attention and introduced George to me. And when he introduced George to me, it just so happened at that time we was in the process—like I say, I was working for HOPE Development—and we was getting ready to open up a boxing gym there in Fifth Ward on Lyons Avenue about two blocks down from where our main headquarters were. And so I was telling George about the gym that we was going to open. And I asked him—I asked him if—I told him I was going to talk with the—he had a whole development, which—with the Reverend Earl Allen—I was going to tell him about the fact that I had met you. And I was going—and I asked George, if he agreed for me to open up and name the gym the George Foreman Gym, would he come there for the ceremony and everything? And he agreed to do so. And when I talked with Earl, he agreed to name it after George. And we had a big ceremony over there, naming that building. Matter of fact, we got the pictures on the wall out there now of that ceremony.

Malachi Crawford

00:07:43 Okay. So do you know what year this—? Oh, this was 1968 or thereabouts because he had just won.

Rev. Ray Martin

Sixty‑eight. Right.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. Excellent. Let me ask you—you mentioned the Reverend Earl Allen—

Rev. Ray Martin

Yeah.

Malachi Crawford

And I’m fascinated by the number of ministers or religious figures that were involved with boxing here in Houston or boxers who became ministers. Can you talk about that? I mean, you’re unique, but also George Foreman eventually went on to become a minister. Was this something that was unusual for your time? I mean, did—can you speak about that, this relationship between boxers becoming ministers and then ministers also supporting the efforts of boxers?

Rev. Ray Martin

Well, here—now, with—with Reverend Allen, he—and I met Reverend Allen through the old Harris County Economic Opportunity organization. He was brought into that organization—hired into that organization—to set up a community development program and getting community involvement and input into trying—because it was called an anti‑poverty program—they was trying to make things better for poor and Black people in particular. But—but Earl’s stand on getting that done was a little too militant for the people who was head of the old Harris County Economic Opportunity organization. So somehow a dispute came up between Reverend Allen and the people with the Harris County Economic Opportunity organization. So Earl broke away from it and set up HOPE Development—HOPE Development—and after he got HOPE going, somehow he contacted me and asked me if I would come out and work with—with the organization—they would like to have me on their team. And he had a good team of people there that was working with him. So I—I left the Harris County Economic Opportunity organization to go and work for HOPE Development with Reverend Allen. And Reverend Allen—oh, yeah, I told him, if he’d let me put that boxing program together and he’d agree to do it, that I would come out there. So he agreed and everything, and that’s how we got that boxing program set out there—set up on Lyons Avenue with HOPE Development.

Malachi Crawford

00:10:46 Is this kind of what led to the PABA, some of the early things that you said that you were involved in, in terms of boxing and social change?

Rev. Ray Martin

Um‑hm.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. Okay. Okay, so that is a lot of what I have. Let me just ask you just one more question about Ali and his struggle for conscientious objector status. Do you recall when—the day Ali refused to be inducted into the armed services in downtown Houston and what that day was like, if you can recall?

Rev. Ray Martin

Okay. And I’m trying to—I don’t think I was at—down at the courthouse on that particular day.

00:12:09 (end of audio seven—0648)

00:00:00 (being audio eight—0649)

Rev. Ray Martin

Let’s see. Let’s see. And a kid come up with a real club business, which I guess what happened—but I knew that—and a lot of talk was going on with regard to what happened when Ali had said that he wasn’t going in. And I’m trying to think of what actually happened with—what building it took place in. I can’t quite put that together. So evidently I had—I must not have been there—been there at the protest at that particular time.

Malachi Crawford

The induction center was at the downtown Post Office, second floor.

Rev. Ray Martin

00:01:01 It was—yeah, it was at the Post Office, there on San Jacinto—yeah, because that’s where the Post Office was at that particular time. And evidently I wasn’t at—I wasn’t there then because no way I couldn’t—I wouldn’t have remembered because I knew there had to be a crowd and everything that was there. So I can’t place being there at that—when it actually happened.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. Okay. Let me ask you one more question. What was your fondest memory, or most memorable memory, of Ali during your encounter with him? How did you remember—how do you remember him? How do you recall him? He’s still alive so—

Rev. Ray Martin

Well—well, you know, for someone with the fame and everything that he had at that time, to identify with myself and the little program that we had, that was—that was tremendous; that was huge. Matter of fact, I’m still talking about him and got pictures around now of it because that was huge. So I could really appreciate what Ali did because—because most of the fighters that came through—like Joe Louis that came through, he came there. But—but what Ali did, no one—none of the fighters touched what Ali did when it comes to sending credibility and support towards PABA or for this movement and the things that he did.

Malachi Crawford

Excellent. Is there anything that you would like to add, just based on anything you remember or—?

Rev. Ray Martin

Unh‑uh. Well, nothing—I’ll just add—only, as a boxer, that most of the boxers who—who has made any type or did—giving PABA the type of support that Ali did would be George Foreman. He’s the only—as a boxer. He wouldn’t let them all—and most of them have come through here—most of the great fighters—but none of them stand out as—like Ali stand out—with George Foreman.

Malachi Crawford

George Foreman. Okay. Thank you so much, Reverend Martin.

Rev. Ray Martin

00:03:58 Yeah, you’re welcome. Thank you.

Malachi Crawford

One more question: Can you give me your full name for the purpose of the interview? Can you give me your full name?

Rev. Ray Martin

Elbert Ray Martin.

Malachi Crawford

Okay. Elbert Ray Martin.

Rev. Ray Martin

Yeah.

Malachi Crawford

Thank you so much, sir.

Rev. Ray Martin

From Taylor, Texas.

Malachi Crawford

From Taylor, Texas.

Rev. Ray Martin

Yeah. That’s thirty‑six miles northeast of Austin. (laughs)

Malachi Crawford

Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. Thank you so much, sir.

Rev. Ray Martin

Yeah.

00:04:28 (end of audio eight‑0649)

A

African-Americans.................................................................................................................... 6, 7, 9, 15

Air Force.................................................................................................................................. 1, 2, 3, 5

Ali, Muhammad........................................................................ 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19

Allen, Earl (Reverend).......................................................................................................................... 16

anti‑poverty program............................................................................................................................ 17

Army.................................................................................................................................................. 5

Astro Arena............................................................................................................................... 8, 13, 14

Astro Hall................................................................................................................................. 8, 13, 14

Astrodome......................................................................................................................................... 13

Astroworld.......................................................................................................................................... 8

Austin (Texas)......................................................................................................................... 1, 2, 3, 19

B

basic training.................................................................................................................................... 2, 3

Blacks...................................................................................................................................... 6, 10, 15

Blackshear (High School)....................................................................................................................... 1

boxing......................................................................................................... 4, 5, 8, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17

Brown vs. Board of Education................................................................................................................ 2

Brown, Rip......................................................................................................................................... 5

C

Civil Rights........................................................................................................................................ 7

Clay, Cassius....................................................................................................................................... 6

Club 500............................................................................................................................................. 7

conscientious objector.......................................................................................................................... 17

D

defensive end.................................................................................................................................... 1, 4

Des Moines (Iowa)................................................................................................................................ 6

E

El Dorado (Club).................................................................................................................................. 8

Ellington Field..................................................................................................................................... 3

Ellis, Jim............................................................................................................................ 8, 13, 14, 15

Everett II, D. Leon (Reverend)............................................................................................................... 11

F

Fifth Ward......................................................................................................................................... 16

fighting preacher......................................................................................................................... 8, 11, 15

football........................................................................................................................................ 1, 4, 5

Foreman, George................................................................................................................. 15, 16, 18, 19

G

GED................................................................................................................................................... 3

Golden Gloves................................................................................................................................ 6, 15

Granger (Texas).................................................................................................................................... 1

H

Harris County Economic Opportunity..................................................................................................... 17

heavyweight......................................................................................................................................... 5

Hogrobrooks, Holly.............................................................................................................................. 7

HOPE (Development Center)........................................................................................................... 16, 17

Houston Independent School Board........................................................................................................ 11

I

integrated............................................................................................................................................ 2

J

Japan.................................................................................................................................................. 3

Jerusalem Missionary Baptist Church..................................................................................................... 11

K

KCOH (radio station)........................................................................................................................... 14

Kennedy administration........................................................................................................................ 12

Korea.................................................................................................................................................. 3

L

Lackland (Air Force Base)...................................................................................................................... 3

Lieberman, Seymour............................................................................................................................. 6

Louis, Joe............................................................................................................................. 5, 6, 12, 18

Lyons Avenue............................................................................................................................... 16, 17

M

Madison, Buster................................................................................................................................. 15

Marines............................................................................................................................................... 2

McAdams, Calvin................................................................................................................................. 7

Mease, Quentin.................................................................................................................................... 7

Milner, David (Reverend)..................................................................................................................... 11

O

Office of Economic Opportunity............................................................................................................. 12

Olympics........................................................................................................................................... 16

Operation Champ................................................................................................................................ 13

P

PABA............................................................................................................... 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18

Prairie View (A&M University)........................................................................................................... 3, 4

Price, O. L., High School...................................................................................................................... 1

R

radio........................................................................................................................................ 8, 14, 15

rainbows............................................................................................................................................. 2

Ralph Cooper Show, The..................................................................................................................... 15

S

segregated........................................................................................................................................ 2, 6

South Central YMCA........................................................................................................................ 4, 5

sparring match........................................................................................................................... 8, 11, 14

St. Louis (Missouri).............................................................................................................................. 6

Stearns, Eldrewey................................................................................................................................. 7

T

Taylor (Texas)................................................................................................................................ 1, 19

TSU.......................................................................................................................................... 4, 7, 10

V

Vietnam..................................................................................................................................... 3, 9, 15

W

Wells, Lloyd C. A............................................................................................................................ 7, 8

welterweight........................................................................................................................................ 5